Going off-roading pt.2

Published by vegankid | Filed under Uncategorized

In the post, It’s Good to Talk About Racism, commenters appear to stay on topic by discussing the phrase “coded language”. However, what i asked of folks was not to defend their use of coded language but, rather:

What are some reasons that you can think of for why it is good to talk about racism? What are some other color-coded words that you hear or use? How did reading this make you feel?

But because i feel it is important to examine how coded-language plays out, how it is justified, and the defensiveness that many White people feel when talking about racism, and because i feel it is important that we continue to have honesty, i’ve decided to move the comments to their own post. So here they are:

unlisted: Let’s talk about trends and why people think that way.

True there are more poor whites. But whites also vastly outnumber blacks in this country. Per capita, blacks have more people on the welfare rolls. Yes there are plenty of white welfare mothers, but that is a distraction because per capita, there are far more black welfare mothers and far more black children born out of wedlock.

Anyone who has visited the inner city can believe their lying eyes or look at the spin. Now the good news is that the black women have made some advancements recently. But the black males are still far behind

At the end of the day, one knows a black neighborhood from a white one by site.

The same applies to crime. One can play with the numbers all they like, but blacks are the great majority of inmates in jail. You guys are not going to help blacks by pretending their problems do not exist or trying to white wash it. You are helping them to use it as a crutch.

Ask youself…When is the last time you have been to “the hood”? If you haven’t been…ask yourself why? How many black neighors do you have?…Not many? …now ask yourselves why?

As to the code words:

“Illegal Immigrant”…People think this way because almost 80% of illegal immigrants are Latino. Look at the trends. In Spain “illegal immigrants are Moroccan Arabs. Can’t deny reality here. Point out a European illegal immigrant in order to deflect attention away from the millions of illegal latinos.

“Terrorist”: Anyone would agree that people should not kill civilians. But in this country when we see daily suicide terror in Iraq and the 9/11 attacks, we look at the culprits and make appropriate assumption. Does this mean that ALL Arabs are terrorists? Of course not. But I is intellectually dishonest in my opinion to point out a notable exception (such as the OKC bombing) to try to make it a rule as is often done.

Ask yourselves…When is the last time any of you have visited a mosque in your town. Ask yourself why if you have not. I think the answer most give to that question and the above one about black neighbors will tell you all you need to know about reality

vegankid: u - you are being honest and i appreciate that. but you have not made any attempt to respect people’s triggers and challenge yourself. instead, it seems to be all about asserting how you are right and others are wrong. you don’t seem to have read the post with an open mind, but rather with the intention to use it to once again assert your stereotypes and surface-level analysis. if you continue to refuse to accept that racism exists and to try and stay on your learning edge, then i’m going to ask you to step out of this discussion. this is a site for folks who want to be allies, not a site to debate whether or not racism exists.

unlisted: vegan - I do not deny racism against people of color at all. I know that it exists and I oppose it in all forms. I just feel like if we are going to solve any real problems that we are going to have to look at these things deeper. Even if we do not like the answers.

There are certain issues that have nothing to do with racism that are listed above and I think it does an injustice to blacks themselves to gloss over them. They have serious problems and we can’t dismiss them as sterotypes. Yes, there are blacks that are hard working and highly educated. But we have to look at the group as a whole and look at the trend. Face the facts and deal with it as it is.

I think that it would help the cause if we identify what is racism and what is not.

It is certainly not my intention to be a troll here (I know no one has accused me of such) but I do intend get others to think a little deeper about these issues as well and why we as groups of human beings react in the ways we react. You all are onto something here, but it has to be deeper.

Many white liberals decry racism, but they are not around blacks very often. Certainly not as much as much as I am. To me it shows a “soft racism” in a way. On the one hand, I don’t want to live around “those people” but I will make myself feel good by denouncing racism. That is different from a person living in a safe neighborhood that happens to be devoid of blacks and he points out that fact. But that person is called racist. That is why I asked those questions (i.e., how many black neighbors you have? etc)

At the end of the day, I say that I agree with you that racism exists and must be opposed, but on the other hand let’s also talk about group differences and how that affects the conversation if we really want to help people.

As a nation we need to open the dialogue. Let us start talking about group differences openly—all sorts of group differences. Let’s talk about the black/ non-black academic acheivement gap and why it really exists. Let’s talk about the differences between Europeans and Arabs that might affect the assimilation of Arab immigrants into European democracies.

At the end of the day, on the individual level I think Steven Pinker put it best writing that “Equality is not the empirical claim that all groups of humans are interchangeable; it is the moral principle that individuals should not be judged or constrained by the average properties of their group”

There are smart blacks and there are whites that can play basketball. But the generality is that different groups of people respond to the same conditions differently. This taboo has crippled our ability to explore almost any topic that involves the different ways in which groups of people respond to the world around them.

We can make some changes, but that will not happen until the conversation has opened up. So let us take one step at a time. Let us stop being afraid of data that tell us a story we do not want to hear and start facing reality.

IrrationalPoint (IP): Unlisted: First of all, Stephen Pinker is writing about a highly disputed theory. Many respected psychologists agree with him (read Ceci or Flynn for example). So it’s not a question of being “afraid of data” or of reality, but rather a question of the methods and data not being sufficiently clear or unbiased at this time.

Secondly, your Pinker quote does not lead to the conclusion that you give — you are judging people by the average properties of their groups.

Thirdly, you are falling into the code-word trap by not really analysing what they mean. It is incorrect to say “terrorist” when you mean “Arab” because “terrorist” is selectively applied to Arabs when there are non-Arabs who have committed similar crimes and not called “terrorists”. If by “terrorist” you mean people who have funded the bin Ladens, then George Bush is guilty as charged. If you mean people who use murder as a rhetorical device, try the Israeli Occupation Forces. Are they being called terrorists?

unlisted: IP: No we should not judge an individual by their group. There are brilliant black scientists for example that should not be judged by the group. They as individuals should not be impeded because their group commit do not achieve like the other groups. However, the facts for the group are the same. You see?

I see your point on terrorist. I am only saying why certain people may think “Arab” when you say that word. We do not see many other groups blowing themselves up in a day care center or a pizzeria murdering women and children regularly. The question is do Israelis target day care centers and restaurants with the *intent* to kill and maim all in the area regardless. If the answer is ‘yes’, then they are terrorist. Still doesn’t change the fact that almost not a day passes except we hear of some act of terror commited by the Arabs in Iraq.

I must say that you are also guilty of code word trap if you are talking about the bin Ladens because their family owns a major construction conglomerate in the Middle East and has nothing to do with the terrorist member of the family. Because the Bushes had done business with that company, this does not mean that they have funded terror.

If you are speaking about the US’s funding of his groups in Afghanistan, then at the time it was imperitive to stop the Soviet march to the Indian ocean and seemed to be a good tactic at the time to have them fight our fight. The mistake was in letting the country fall into chaos afterwards.

IP: “However, the facts for the group are the same. You see?”

It’s not clear at present that they *are* facts, because the “evidence” is highly disputed. It’s not at present possible to study innate social trends on a large enough scale, nor is it possible to discount social factors in group behaviour.

“The question is do Israelis target day care centers and restaurants with the *intent* to kill and maim all in the area regardless.”

Yup — the Isreali Occupation Forces routinely target residential neighbourhoods late at night, for example.

“I must say that you are also guilty of code word trap if you are talking about the bin Ladens”

I am fully aware of the fact that dealing with the bin Laden family is not the same as dealings with Osama. I was citing someone else’s definition, not one I agree with. Perhaps i should have made that clearer. I’ve blogged about the use of the word terrorism in the past at my own blog here

“this does not mean that they have funded terror”

What I was trying to say is that “terror” is a fuzzy concept so it’s easy for the term to be applied selectively, when “terrorist” really means “Arab”. Certainly the US government funds the Israeli military forces, for example. Is that terrorism, given what the IDF does to Palestinians? Does it get called terrorism?

unlisted: IP:

What I am saying is that the evidence of group differences is in front of our eyes for everyone to see. More and more evidence is coming out in favor of it too. If that is the case. Should it be released or kept secret?

Your blog on terror is fair enough. Terrorist *can* be a loaded term and used for propaganda. If I’m not mistaken William Wallace was also considered to be a terrorist by the English as well.

The Palestinians’ hands are not clean either. They have very poor and corrupt leadership and they have to deflect the blame to someone else. In many ways they remind me of black Americans (although many Palestinians generally do not like black Americans and would not like the comparison) in that they blame the Israelis (the corrupt elite, fat cat, black leadership in comparison blames whites) for all their problems and are overplaying the victim status and doing nothing to help themselves. They are filled with hatred beyond that which either of us have seen. In the height of the civil rights movement, we did not see blacks in this country willing to blow themselves up in a white restaurant or store in order to kill whites.

While there is oppression against the Palestinians, I can not in any way condone or make an excuse for random suicide murders on daycare centers, buses and restaurants. That is hideous. And people that sympathize with the Palestinians were willing to slam planes into the WTC and murder thousands.

IP: Unlisted:“What I am saying is that the evidence of group differences is in front of our eyes for everyone to see. More and more evidence is coming out in favor of it too. If that is the case. Should it be released or kept secret?”

Firstly, the data is not being kept secret — it’s being published and anyone who wants to can go read it, so I’m not sure what your point was about that. Secondly, having studied a great deal of the research on this, it’s *not* obvious that the data reflects innate differences — there is an undeniably significant social factor. How familiar are you with the research?

“hey blame the Israelis … for all their problems”

I think you need to actually find out what’s really happening in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The occupation is illegal. and unjustified. The blockade is causeing extreme shortages of food, drinking water, and medicines. The occupation has caused an economic and humanitarian crisis. And you think the *Palestinians* are the ones crying vicitim?

“They are filled with hatred beyond that which either of us have seen. In the height of the civil rights movement, we did not see blacks in this country willing to blow themselves up in a white restaurant or store in order to kill whites.”

You’re falling into the code-word trap again. Palestinians are not the same as suicide bombers. The vast majority of Palestinians are not suicide bombers. Hamas won the election because they deliver basic necessities (free soup kitchen, clinics, and schools), when Fatah does not. Hamas did not win the election because of it’s militant wing.

Making the generalisation you are making is roughly equivalent to saying all Americans are KKK supporters.

“While there is oppression against the Palestinians, I can not in any way condone or make an excuse for random suicide murders on daycare centers, buses and restaurants. That is hideous.”

Of course it’s disgusting. Note that I express support for Palestinian human rights (and indeed human rights generally), but NOT for suicide attacks, because they’re NOT the same thing.

unlisted: IP: I think that you will agree that the suicide murderers make things much worse for the common Palestinian. Each time there is a suicide murder, the blockade gets worse.

As for illegal occupation, one could reasonably argue that WE are illegally occupying this country. But is that a feasible position? Part of Hamas’ argument is that because the occupation is illegal, they can kill any Israeli any time and any place of any age as they are ALL occupiers. That is dead wrong and evil.

Yes, the Palestinian LEADERSHIP is very corrupt and they divert attention away from themselves to the Israelis. Much of the humanitarian aid that gets to the Palestinian territories gets stolen by their leadership.

With Hamas in power, we will see how well they run the gov’t. I fear they will be as corrupt as Fatah eventually.

As for the differences in groups, I have done much reading on it and yes there is a social factor. The question is how much. Asians in this country have managed pretty well relatively speaking and don’t seem to have the same problems as blacks.

douglass: Kivel is being tricky here.

His ‘seven words’ are an attempt to strawman whites as unconsciously racist so that if they object to his theory, well guess what, they just can’t fathom the correctness of his theory…because of their racism..Convenient.

Kivel unnecessarily candy coats things while he goes about planting the seed of ideas so that the reader think that they thought of kivel’s presupposition, and ignore kivel’s supplication; which is that racist=white, and again he presupposes that anyone who disagrees is not proactively conscious of the trend of white racism.
Kivel being strangely aloof: “ Racism is an everyday influence on our lives which has great power partly because we don’t talk about it. Talking about racism lessens its power, breaks the awful, uncomfortable silence we live within. Talking about it makes it less scary.”
Kivel for real: From Christopher Columbus to Bill Clinton-we have over 500 years of history of white male violence. In fact, one of aspects of American history that our school history books portray well is white men’s inability to use anything other than violence to achieve their goals.

Kivel’s approach in the text in discussion is disrespectful to people who have ideological disagreements with Kivel’s theory.

Kivel seems to enjoy painting the status quo of America as structural racism. This is accomplished by a double standard of proportionality in regards to the effects of a racial majority.

When the status quo of America as well as American capitalism and market neoliberalism are demonized as structural forms of oppression; white racism and white privilege are portrayed as a result of an inherent immorality rather than the result of the white majority in the USA.

I’d say that this ‘privilege’ is neither earned or unearned. It is a result of the white majority and painting it as otherwise is a shrewd although quite propangistic attempt to force concessions on this majority that could not be accomplished at the ballot box.

IP: Unlisted: “Part of Hamas’ argument is that because the occupation is illegal, they can kill any Israeli any time and any place of any age as they are ALL occupiers. That is dead wrong and evil.”

Before, you were discussing suicide attacks in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in terms of Isrealis and terrorists as if “Palestinians” and “suicide bombers” were equivalent, and that is a code-word trap. You do seem to be clear about the difference between Israeli *citizens* and the IDF. But you’re not making the same distinction between Palestinians and Hamas:

*Suicide bombers* blow up restaurants etc, without justification. *The IDF* bulldozes the homes of Palestinians knowing Palestinians are trapped inside and will die in the process, without justification.

Palestinians die in routine acts of brutality by the IDF and the government. Isreali civilians die in suicide attacks. But we call Isrealis “Isrealis”, and we call Palestinians “terrorists”.

“As for the differences in groups, I have done much reading on it and yes there is a social factor. The question is how much. Asians in this country have managed pretty well relatively speaking and don’t seem to have the same problems as blacks.”

How do you know that that isn’t due to another social factor?

unlisted: IP, I thought that I made the distinction when I named Hamas and not Palestinians in general. I will submit to you on this point, especially since you have made no excuses for the suicide murders like others I have met try to do. “Yea it’s wrong BUT…”

IP: How do you know that that isn’t due to another social factor?

IQ tests show that Asians have a higher IQ than they do and this is a factor as well.

Secondly, even other oppressed groups such as Palestinians have been able to come over to this country and make something of themselves while we still have large groups of blacks mired in their social quagmire. (BTW, ask a Palestinian what he thinks of blacks and watch the answer you get most of the time)

Blacks consistently allow other nationalities to dominate the economy of their neighborhood or country.

On the flip side, we just haven’t seen blacks become a market dominant minority any place on the planet at any point in history. Yet we CONSISTENTLY see market dominant Chinese, Indians, Lebanese and whites in several countries.

Does it not say something that we can’t point to a single place on the planet where blacks are a market dominant enterprising minority? Or even a MAJORITY for that matter?

America’s perpetual trouble has been a less-productive black minority. Blacks themselves even joke about it.

If our current mass immigration system is allowed to continue, America will become just another country with a market dominant minority (i.e., whites) and make the situation of the blacks (and by extension all of us as crime goes up) worse by bringing in more productive minorities (i.e., Latinos) to run them out of the workplace.

BTW, the WSJ had an article recently where a researcher was finding innate differences between groups and the University canceled the research.

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